There’s way too much stuff going on at the winter meetings for me to post any comprehensive article today. It’s about Manny today, as there were a blizzard of news.

First, as we all probably know by now, Sunday at midnight (so technically Monday) the Red Sox and Dodgers met to chat about Manny. Reportedly, the Red Sox and Dodgers left the meetings with the Dodgers believing there was only a 5% chance of a deal getting done, as the Red Sox’s asking price was three of the Dodger’s best prospects.

A deal with the Mariners has surfaced with J.J. Putz heading to Boston and also a three-way with J.J. Putz and Adam Jones to Boston, Richie Sexson to San Francisco, and Manny and Noah Lowry to Seattle.

The Nationals are chatting with the Red Sox too, with Chad Cordero to Boston, Manny to the Giants, and Noah Lowry to the Nationals.

Wednesday, the Red Sox will shift from exploratory talks to listen-only mode on Manny. This means significant progress will have to be made today if there is a chance of a trade happening during this week. The Red Sox are doing the right thing here, as they need to focus on other things during the Winter Meetings, such as signing free agents and discussing other trades. The Manny stretch drive is here, and if the Red Sox don’t deal him by the end of December, I would hope all talks are shut down so we can move on.

The Mariners, Nationals, Giants and Angels have all spoken with the Red Sox about Manny so far. Manny gave the Red Sox a list of 13 teams he would accept a trade to, and all reports are that he has no interest in forcing a contract extension or options being picked up, and the Red Sox have made it clear to him if he holds up any trade, he will not be moved and will not be moved at all in the future years. So for those tired of the Manny rumors, if he’s not dealt this year, he will never be.

J.J. Putz is … amazing. I would love Putz. He tossed 78.1 IP this past year, saving 36 games with a 0.92 WHIP and 2.30 ERA. He had 13 walks and 104 strikeouts.

Let me go over this again.

78.1 IP

13 BB

104 K

.207 BAA

4 HR

59 H

36 SV

I mean … WHAT? WHAT? Is this guy HUMAN? This is Papelbon-esque numbers. He’s 29 years old and has one more year left at minimum salary before hitting arbitration.

Jonathan Broxton and James Loney remain the cream of the crop to me, but J.J. Putz as a Red Sox? Zero complaints.

[Updates] Throughout Tuesday, I will update with news and rumors that occur. The important stuff that happened Monday was that Vincente Padilla returned to the Texas Rangers, Rich Aurilia signed with the Giants, Bengie Molina is on the cusp of doing so, Jose Guillen is a Mariner, Chris Carpenter remains in St. Louis until at least 2012, and Greg Maddux is about to be a Padre.

12:17 AM: The Chicago Tribune says free agent Julio Lugo will sign with Boston.

12:51 AM: The Pirates are chasing Trot Nixon. Interesting. OK, bed time. See you all the next time I update.

11:02 AM: Mark Loretta was offered a contract from the Reds. Word is that Jon Lester’s cancer is in rehab, and the Red Sox have received a “legitimate” offer for Manny Ramirez.

11:14 AM: Jason Jennings is probably headed somewhere soon, as the rumors are flying fast and furious on him.

12:37 PM: Even though Tom Verducci is the only source saying this, Andy Pettite could return to the Bombers by the end of the week. The Phillies could deal Aaron Rowand for a starting pitcher back to the White Sox (Freddy Garcia?) then trade Jon Leiber for bullpen help. The Orioles have the top offer into Luis Gonzalez, and are talking to the Mariners about Ben Broussard. In addition, the Orioles and Braves have discussed a four-player deal sending Brian Roberts and Hayden Penn to Atlanta for Adam LaRoche and Marcus Giles. According to Baseball Prs0pectus the Sox rejected Broxton and LaRoche for Manny.

1:00 PM: Rotoworld: The Mercury News believes the Giants would have to send Noah Lowry, Jonathan Sanchez and Brian Wilson to Washington in order to pull off the rumored three-team Manny Ramirez deal. If the Giants were willing to do that, the Nationals could send both Chad Cordero and Felipe Lopez to Boston.

4:00 PM: The Red Sox are in the talks for Eric Gagne, and also inquired into Mike Gonzalez and Salomon Torres of the Pirates. The Sox will meet with Julio Lugo’s agents Tuesday, and word is Lugo wants to turn down more money from the Mets to be a shortstop in Boston. Francona told XM Radio that he very much doubts Manny will be traded. Truth or spin?

6:25 PM: Steve Phillips reports Julio Lugo is headed to Boston. This may also open up more flexibility on Boston’s end for the Manny talks. Kevin Mench and Jose Capellan are rumored to go to Philly for Jon Lieber. WFAN had earlier said Lugo had a 4-year, $36 million contract on the table from the Mets. The Sox probably gave him four years at $32-$40 million.

7:53 PM: Jon Lester confirmed he is cancer-free. Scott Boras has confirmed J.D. Drew will get five years at $70 million from the Red Sox and the Red Sox said that the Manny talks were all but dead. Count on Manny or Wily Mo Pena moving for bullpen help.

10:09 PM: Julio Lugo will recieve four years, $36 million to become the Sox’s shortstop. Rotoworld also agrees with me that Lugo is an underrated defender. Find a closer now, Theo! I’m content with SS Lugo 1B Youkilis DH Ortiz LF Ramirez RF Drew 3B Lowell C Varitek CF Crisp 2B Pedroia. Instead of keeping Pena on the bench ANOTHER year, get a quality pen arm for him, or deal Manny already!

Categories: Adam Jones Andy LaRoche Andy Pettitte Baltimore Orioles Brian Wilson Chad Cordero Hayden Penn J.D. Drew J.J. Putz Jason Jennings Jon Lieber Jonathan Broxton Jonathan Sanchez Jose Capellan Kevin Mench Marcus Giles Mark Loretta Mike Gonzalez Noah Lowry Salomon Torres Trading Manny Saga Trot Nixon Washington Nationals

Born on the 37th anniversary of the the day Babe Ruth died (1985) which later became the day Jimy Williams was fired in 2001 (a monumental event at the time), Evan was too young to experience the pain 1986 brought, but a deep wound was sowed in 2003. Since then, Fire Brand has become a blog that Red Sox “club officials read,” as per Peter Gammons. Evan enjoys working out, writing, reading, quality television, science fiction and history and being newly married. He is a professional baseball journalist as well as president of a state non-profit and member of the Board of Directors for a national profit. (Twitter.)

56 Responses to “Manny, It's all about Manny” Subscribe

  1. RH December 5, 2006 at 12:02 AM #

    The only deal out of all of those that I would consider is Adam Jones and JJ Putz for Manny.
    Chad Cordero for Manny? No way.
    I'm happy that the Red Sox are going to take it easy with Manny for awhile; perhaps this way we can better find out if he really wants to be traded. I'd be ecstatic to hear, when/if it happens, that Manny is staying.
    But back to the trade rumors: I've heard 2 other rumors involving the Sox…
    1. Derrick Turnbow (MIL) to Boston for Mike Lowell, Wily Mo Pena, OR a prospect
    2. Akinori Otsuka and Gerald Laird to Boston, Freddy Garcia and Wily Mo Pena to Texas, Michael Young to the White Sox.
    I think the primary goals for Theo should be to finalize the Drew deal (just to get it out of the way), and to NOT sign Lugo. Then get going, and I mean SERIOUSLY get going on the Daisuke Matsuzaka negotiations. That time counter on the Boston Globe website is freaking me out every time I look at it. WE NEED HIM!

  2. Evan December 5, 2006 at 12:13 AM #

    I would certainly like Turnbow, but NOT for Lowell or Pena.
    Texas trade is … interesting. Don't think I'd do it.

  3. josh December 5, 2006 at 12:14 AM #

    Hmm. I can't say I'm a fan of that deal for Boston. For all the hype around Jones, and I realize he's still really young…he's a long way off.
    In fact…that seems like Seattle would be getting one hell of a deal, sending off a guy they don't really want and a prospect who's still years away, and getting a young(ish) SP with upside and Manny Ramirez. Although, maybe Jones could be flipped to LAA for Erik Aybar or Brandon Wood; Jones used to be a SS, but played OF last year…which makes me think his D ain't all that good. And the Angels don't have many OF prospects.
    My question is, how much do the Mariners want to unload Sexson's contract? I don't know much about his trade value right now…but I'd like to see a deal built around sending Manny to SF, Lowry to Seattle, and Sexson/Putz to Boston. The Sox would probably have to do something to sweeten the deal for Seattle, but it shouldn't take much.
    Then Youk could move back to 3rd, Sexson goes to 1st, and Lowell gets traded…ideally to CHW for MacDougall, if that's actually an option. The D would be worse…but with a 7-8-9 of MacDougall, Timlin, and Putz, I think it's worth the sacrifice.
    "2. Akinori Otsuka and Gerald Laird to Boston, Freddy Garcia and Wily Mo Pena to Texas, Michael Young to the White Sox."
    Wily Mo for Otsuka and Laird? No. Just, no. I don't want another control-closer, especially one who New York absolutely shelled last season. Laird looks like a nice young C, but it ain't worth it. And there's no way in hell Derrek Turnbow is worth more then a marginal prospect at this point…one good season and one AWFUL season? He'd be a salary dump and reclamation project, that's it.

  4. Evan December 5, 2006 at 12:23 AM #

    Josh,
    It's actually the other way around. Jones' D is so good (at least with athleticism and range, can't commend on hands) that he can pretty much play anywhere.

  5. josh December 5, 2006 at 12:33 AM #

    Oh. Heh, fair enough. About those hands though…how do you make 3 errors in 26 games as an OF? Eesh…
    I still don't like him for Boston, simply because I don't think Putz could make up for Manny's absence…and I don't see how anyone could argue that Jones is ready for a starting job in the bigs. If he's got problems with his hands, I don't think starting SS for the Boston Red Sox is a good place to work them out…think Rent-a-Wreck redux. Soon, maybe…but the .829 AAA OPS last season doesn't look great. The 16 homers in 380 AB's and 13/17 on the basepaths looks pretty nice, but that's about it…
    I dunno…Putz/Jones might be a good move for 08 and beyond, but I think it'd probably kill our chances to compete in 07.

  6. RH December 5, 2006 at 12:39 AM #

    Jones is actually not the centerpiece of that deal…it's Putz.
    Putz has the stuff to become one heck of a closer, and he's cheap for next season. I'm basically just echoing what Evan said in the article, but I think it'd be worth it, especially if the Sox could turn Jones around and possibly ship him to Anaheim for Orlando Cabrera(?)
    On the other hand, it appears that the Sox have reached a deal with Lugo per the Chicago Tribune and my friend, who works for the Giants.

  7. josh December 5, 2006 at 12:50 AM #

    …I know Putz is the centerpiece of that deal. I just don't think trading Manny for a closer and a prospect makes a hell of a lot of sense. I thought we wanted close to equal value; that ain't close to equal value. The only reason I supported a deal for Broxton/1 of the Dodger Crowd is that Broxton's 8 years younger and doesn't get arbitration until 2009, and any one of those position prospects would have definately been useful this season. Jones, not so much. If we can spin him into something useful, it might be worth thinking about…if not, as much as I like Putz, I can't stand that trade.
    The only glimmer of hope I have with the Lugo signing, besides the idea that maybe that Chicago writer was just saying the same thing everyone else has said in different words, (that Lugo wants to play SS) is that reports elsewhere said Boston's offering less money then NY and Chicago. So maybe it's closer to 4/$24 instead of 4/$40…

  8. RH December 5, 2006 at 1:12 AM #

    I doubt Lugo would sign for 4/24. I wonder if it's less years…3/24?

  9. josh December 5, 2006 at 1:33 AM #

    I doubt 4/$24 too, I just don't want him for any more then that. And 3/$24 would also leave me pretty miserable…3/$21 I could stomach a little more.

  10. RH December 5, 2006 at 1:43 AM #

    So the goal is to get as little of Lugo for as little as possible — sounds good to me.
    But look at what a scout for the Cubs had to say "Lugo is a top-5 shortstop overall in baseball. Behind Tejada, Jeter, and Young, he's right there." Mets GM Omar Minaya also praised Lugo.
    Defensively, well, ummm…
    On the other hand…
    1. Lugo
    2. Youk
    3. Papi
    4. Manny
    5. Drew
    6. Lowell
    7. Varitek
    8. Crisp
    9. Pedroia
    Sounds darn good to me…

  11. josh December 5, 2006 at 1:59 AM #

    Except if that's our lineup…our bullpen is probably still as bad as it was last year. Worse, since we won't have a closer. In fact, let's be honest with ourselves right now. To be a good team, even that lineup makes a lot of assumptions; we may think they're reasonable…but we're also fans, and wear the blinders to a certain extent. Namely, that lineup's success is dependent on Manny still being himself, which for the first time I can remember seems to be a question. It depends on Drew's adjustment/health, Crisp's rebound, Lugo's success, Tek's bounceback, and Lowell's level of play staying near early 2006 and not 2005. I think most of those are pretty likely to happen…but who knows…
    If they sign Lugo I'll get behind him because I have to. But if it's really 4/$40 like some are saying…I just can't support that kind of a paycheck. Not even in this market.

  12. RH December 5, 2006 at 2:09 AM #

    Interesting rumor going around from Seattle…
    "The Mariners may be working toward a deal that would send 1B Richie Sexson and top OF prospect Adam Jones to the Yankees in exchange for top pitching prospect Phillip Hughes. The Mariners may then try to turn Hughes around in a deal with the Red Sox for Manny Ramirez."
    Almost certainly just a rumor because I can't see the Yankees trading Hughes, but they need a 1B/DH pretty badly and the only guy available is Shea Hillenbrand.
    But yes, I understand your point about Lugo. On the other hand, if he hits .300 and steals 30+ bases, even $10M a year won't seem so bad. One other concern: Lugo would be 35 by the end of the deal if it's for 4 years and his speed will almost certainly decline somewhere in the middle of his time with the Sox.

  13. josh December 5, 2006 at 2:18 AM #

    "One other concern: Lugo would be 35 by the end of the deal if it's for 4 years and his speed will almost certainly decline somewhere in the middle of his time with the Sox."
    Yeah, that's a big part of why I don't like him for 4 years at anything more then $6-7MM. Period. 2 things I see wrong with that M's/Yanks rumor, though. First: It doesn't seem terribly wise for New York to begin with. Second: Why wouldn't the Mariners just hold onto Hughes themselves? BA called him "arguably the best pitching prospect in the game" and said he'd help the club this year.
    But anyway…Hughes and Putz for Manny? I think I'd do that…the spite-factor would be great, too. Pretty sure this is a pipe dream, though.

  14. RH December 5, 2006 at 2:35 AM #

    Oh, it's a pipe dream for sure, it was just too interesting to keep quiet about. There's a radio station in Seattle — the name escapes me — that churns up all kinds of interesting rumors.
    The Sox are scheduled to meet with the Angels tonight and apparently again tomorrow. I have no clue what's up with these midnight meetings, but if Theo can get more leverage because he's younger than the other GM's and can stay up later, I've got no issues with that. LAA is the only remaining team with scheduled meetings with Boston about Ramirez, though the Sox are supposed to meet with Milwaukee tomorrow as well (Turnbow? JJ Hardy? ummm…Ben Sheets?). I could see the Sox making a deal with the Halos, but Scot Shields would have to be involved and Anaheim doesn't seem to be willing to deal him.
    I'd consider something like Manny for Howie Kendrick, Juan Rivera and Scot Shields, or Manny for Juan Rivera and Jered Weaver. Both pipe dreams, no doubt, because the Angels won't trade 3 top players for sure. Anything less than that: the Sox are better off with Manny.

  15. josh December 5, 2006 at 3:07 AM #

    Agreed. I'd also do a Manny>>Angels deal for Rivera, Shields, and Wood, though that seems less likely then Kendrick.
    Last thing before I turn in…Rosenthal says an offer for Manny has been made. All he says is that Boston told another team that there's a legitimate offer on the table, and that it involves "young pitching." I guess the only thing noteworthy here is that Boston's been presented with a real offer and it didn't shoot it down right away…

  16. DrYounk in SF December 5, 2006 at 3:29 AM #

    The Mariners need a SP as much as they need power bats in their lineup at this point, so I'm sure they'd love Noah Lowry. However, there's little chance that the Giants part with him, since at this point he's their number 2 starter, costs relatively little, and they don't seem to be pursuing free-agent SPs.
    Sexson is a horrible idea, nice power totals put poor fielding and baserunning. I know he has that "I can hit good pitching" flair that Manny has, but he's not really in the same league. Bill James projects Sexson to be +8 runs per 162 games relative to all MLB 1B (regulars and reserves), which would rank him 12th in MLB. So in theory he's a bit better than average offensively. Manny Ramirez is +41 in LF.
    In fact, I hope the Yankees give up their best pitching prospect to acquire him

  17. Sam December 5, 2006 at 5:37 AM #

    Then again, Shea Hillenbrand would make a great Yankee.

  18. RH December 5, 2006 at 10:12 AM #

    Yeah, I'd love to see him start criticizing the Boss and Torre. Won't last long!

  19. Jared K December 5, 2006 at 11:19 AM #

    I hope we do not get Sexson back…that would be horrible. Between that guy and WMP there would be way too many k's in the middle of the order. I still hope a Billingsley/LaRoche package gets done..I doubt it will happen though. You could use Bilingsley like the Cards used Adam Wainright last year, a power set-up guy, and move him to the rotation next year when Schill retires. Speaking of the Cards…I wonder if a Rolen/Ramairez trade would ever be entertained by the Cards, everyone knows LaRussa and Rolen do not like eachother, maybe they would deal one headache for a different kind of headache. We could throw in Lowell so they dont lose much on D and they could add a Reyes or Wainright. I know there is probably a million reasons this would never happen, just thought after the playoffs last year that Rolen and LaRussa may have trouble co-existing.

  20. RH December 5, 2006 at 11:40 AM #

    So the Reds are stealing our infield — Gonzalez and now Loretta — what's up with that?!
    I've heard a rumor that the "legitimate offer" is from the Angels for Juan Rivera and Jered Weaver, though that's from a pretty unreliable source — my friend claims to have seen it on an newspaper sports site.

  21. Jared K December 5, 2006 at 12:16 PM #

    According to Baseball Prspectus the Sox rejected Broxton and LaRoche for Manny:
    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?art
    That is surprising that they would turn that down to me. You could have played LaRoche at ss with Cora available if he struggles and used the Lugo money to sign a Dotel or Gagne. Also in case you missed it a couple of site's are reporting lester is in remission, which is kinda weird/innapropriate considering his father nor the Sox have commented on the matter.

  22. Dave B December 5, 2006 at 12:24 PM #

    Juan Rivera and Jered Weaver? I'm all over that if I'm Theo. I'm not so high on a trade revolving around Putz or Cordero. I feel like we can improve out bullpen without giving up a top 5 hitter in all of baseball. I really don't know what to believe at this point, though. I think Manny is too important and too hard to replace in exchange for a 29 year old closer and a prospect.

  23. Sean O December 5, 2006 at 12:36 PM #

    Adam Jones: is everyone high? He is a terrible baseball player, completely unable to hit. You can't be serious, right?
    JJ Putz: fine, but for Manny? No freaking way.
    Why do we want a SS who can't hit and a single bullpen arm? Is this fair for decimating the lineup?

  24. Evan December 5, 2006 at 12:46 PM #

    Wow, I'm surprised that trade was rejected, Jared. Wow.

  25. Dave B December 5, 2006 at 12:47 PM #

    ESPN has running on its bottom ticker that Lesters cancer is in remission and he will be at spring training. I doubt that means he will be pitching at spring training but even still it is a step in the right direction. His health comes first but speaking as a baseball fan, I want nothing more then him to be pitching for the Sox at some point this year, if not next. Either way, its a great thing to hear he is on the road to recovery.
    Purely speculating, I have said this before and with Lester doing better it raises the question again. Is it possible we have enough SP for now and the future that we could part way with one or two of them so we can fill holes we currently have?

  26. Sean O December 5, 2006 at 12:50 PM #

    Dave B:
    We said the same thing last March, and we ended up with Devern Hansack, Kyle Snyder and Sexy Lips starting games every few days in September. Keep every arm you can.

  27. Jared K December 5, 2006 at 12:58 PM #

    Evan, I was surprised they turned that down as well…they must be insisting on one of Loney/Kemp/Billingsley as well. Seems like if you are able to get Broxton and LaRoche you would do well to get another B – prospect and count yourselves lucky. They got a kid named Justin Orenduff (actually 23 I think) who is coming of an injury and may have lost some value, he has good stuff and had pitched well all the way through Double-A. I say they try and get someone like that or Blake DeWitt and jump on this deal before Toronto or Atlanta gets their heads out of their asses and realizes they are not likely to compete this year and your gonna get a lot more now for Jones/Wells then in July.

  28. Dave B December 5, 2006 at 1:12 PM #

    The comparison to last year isn't fair for what I'm asking. I'm not talking about trading quality prove pitching, I'm asking is it possible that Theo will entertain trade offers for our farm hens? Some of our kids could have great value in trades and we have glaring issues that need to be addressed if we have any hope this year. I'm not saying we should, but i think trading some of these kids could be considered for the betterment of the team.

  29. Dave B December 5, 2006 at 1:22 PM #

    The reason why am i asking this, besides the need for real relief help and middle infielders, is i just read that they plan on making Masterson a starter. It just seems like we have plenty of SPs for the future. 4 of our top 10 prospects are starters. Lots of teams are looking for young pitching, maybe it would be best to sell when the demand is high?

  30. Dave B December 5, 2006 at 1:44 PM #

    OK, the more stats I'm looking at the more wrong i feel about trading these kids. Did anyone see that we had 3 of the top 11 rookie pitchers in VORP last year. Sadly 2 of them weren't still with us. Maybe we should keep the ones we have right now, because all things considered we can produce pitchers.

  31. josh December 5, 2006 at 3:02 PM #

    Dave B.,
    A lot of teams raise their kids as starters because it's easier to make the conversion from SP-RP then RP-SP. Example: Mo Rivera was raised as a starter.
    I can't believe Boston would reject Jered Weaver/Juan Rivera…so I'm going to call shenanigans. That seems like exactly the kind of deal they'd be jumping all over-2 proven ML'rs.

  32. Shane December 5, 2006 at 4:10 PM #

    It's not all about Manny, Congrats to Big Papi for winning his fourth "Edgar Martinez Outstanding Designated Hitter Award". It's not the MVP, but you can't deny that he is an outstanding designated hitter.

  33. josh December 5, 2006 at 7:37 PM #

    I'd point out that Steve Phillips also reported that Manny would be gone by now and that Barry Bonds would be on Boston's radar.
    Maybe he gets this one right, since everyone's saying it…but he's a fricken idiot.

  34. Zach December 5, 2006 at 9:28 PM #

    Manny deal "all but dead." Sigh of relief.
    I gotta admit, I'm very enamored with the prospect of a lineup of Lugo, Youk, Papi, Manny, Drew, Lowell, Varitek, Crisp, Pedroia. If we add Matsuzaka, the rotation also looks very good. What Theo will do finding a top-flight bullpen pitcher will prove how great a GM he really is. Manny looked to be the best route in strengthening our desolate bullpen. This will be interesting.

  35. RH December 5, 2006 at 10:19 PM #

    Drew = good signing
    Lugo = the jury's still out
    Matsuzaka = priority #1 now
    Trade Pena for bullpen help.
    Thank you Theo, for not trading Manny yet…and thanks in advance for not trading him at all.

  36. Sean O December 5, 2006 at 10:21 PM #

    Fuck you Theo, the worst GM in sports.
    Lugo 4/36 is indefensible. He is a terrible player, and we make yet another terrible move.
    Fuck off and Die, Epstein.

  37. Zach December 5, 2006 at 10:54 PM #

    I'm beginning to receive the notion that commenter Sean O is not too pleased with this recent acquisition.

  38. josh December 5, 2006 at 10:57 PM #

    Sean sounds like he's about ready to put his foot through a wall. $4/36 stings…and I would have been MUCH happier with less time or less money…but it's not indefensible. At all. Of course, this assumes Lugo is the guy he was in 2005 and pre-trade 2006; not a terribly unlikely scenario.
    Anyway, Theo's also far from the worst GM in sports, bud. Danny Ainge? Isaiah Thomas(former GM)? Mike Flanagan? C'mon…

  39. Evan December 5, 2006 at 10:57 PM #

    He should be pleased. But we'll let Lugo do the talking in 2007.

  40. Sean O December 5, 2006 at 11:01 PM #

    Isiah's at least managed to get decent players on his team, he's just stupid because he takes on ridiculous contracts and they all hate each other. Theo hasn't made a good move in over 2 years now, as we've discussed here before. Now we get a player who can't do anything well, and even better, is a wife beater!
    I just don't get it. What's Josh Beckett's ERA again? You mean just for the pleasure of getting a 5.01 ERA pitcher, good for the 72nd best pitcher out of 80, we give up the NL ROTY who would've been playing shortstop this year, and a 22 year old who threw a no-hitter?
    Even Isiah hasn't wiffed this badly. Thanks, Theo.

  41. RH December 5, 2006 at 11:17 PM #

    Bad GM's begin and end with Matt Millen.
    Give Theo a chance: he's made what 3 bad moves?
    Look at Brian Sabean of the Giants. This is a guy who traded Francisco Liriano, Boof Bonser, AND Joe Nathan for AJ Pierzynski. That may be the worst trade EVER. And Sabean has made countless other mistakes. Amazingly, he's still got a job.
    I know Theo looks bad right now, but give him a chance. I doubt that Lugo is worth 4/36, but am I the only one here who LIKES the Drew deal? I think Drew was a fantastic signing by the Sox, and Lugo may turn out to be better than we think. Let's see how this year plays out — if the Sox finish 3rd again, then I'll understand the calls for his ouster.

  42. josh December 5, 2006 at 11:20 PM #

    Isaih fielded the Yankees of the NBA…and they played like the Royals. I'd consider that a total and abject failure.
    But anyway…Beckett can still turn into an ace. If he comes back next year, posts a 3.5 ERA and wins 20 games, you gonna be complaining still? And what about when Sanchez's shitty peripherals catch up to him, still gonna be mad he isn't in our rotation instead? One no-no doesn't mean he's got a future, and if you know a thing about baseball, you should know that. *cough* Hideo Nomo *cough*.
    Also, about Drew…This worries me a bit. Though I am pretty sure they've underestimated Drew's power…

  43. RH December 6, 2006 at 12:07 AM #

    PECOTA commonly underestimates power, and I think Drew will hit around 20-25HR, maybe more, if he stays healthy. Health is the key — notice that BP has him making just 475PA's, and including 70BB, that's just 405AB's. If he stays healthy, Drew should have closer to 550-600 in Boston. 14 x 550/405 = 19.01. In other words, if he stays healthy, Drew should have roughly 19HR at the very least.

  44. DrYounk in SF December 6, 2006 at 12:08 AM #

    Last year, Theo traded the NL Rookie of the Year, a guy who threw a no-no, and a guy who threw 50 innings with an ERA of one, going some ridiculous number of innings without giving up a run, and a promising young catcher… Theo got a backup catcher and a starter who threw league-average. Anger towards Theo over the disaster that was our signings and trades last offseason is anger totally justified. We didn't have it in '05, and crashed in '06, and now we're asking Theo to help us step up and be a complete team in 2007. So far all that's happened is we've spent more or less to the tune the market this offseason. The point is, Theo now has a chance to prove his ability, not to mention lots of pieces to play around with. So please don't curse Theo. Yet.
    Also, think about how much better of a signing Drew is than the Gary Matthews Jr. gaffe. As Rob Neyer said, "[The Angels] will regret it almost immediately."

  45. RH December 6, 2006 at 12:09 AM #

    Couldn't agree more DrYounk

  46. Evan December 6, 2006 at 12:15 AM #

    A wife beater? The charges were dropped by officials due to no proof whatsoever.

  47. josh December 6, 2006 at 12:54 AM #

    The Meredith trade was miserable, to be sure. And what bothered me most was that he attributed his success to being allowed to pitch the way he wanted to; Boston apparently hammered an approach that he just never felt comfortable with, and SD let him do what he liked. That's deeply troubling, if it's true.
    But I'm still undecided on the Beckett deal. I think Hanley could be a star…but I think Beckett could still become an ace. And I fully expect Sanchez to come crashing back to earth, no-no or not. His strikeout and walk numbers last year did not translate to that ERA…expect a major sophmore slump.
    I'd also point out that, with constant pressure to do otherwise, Theo's typically done a great job holding onto all his minor league talent. And he's been in charge of two of the best drafts in Red Sox history, at least according to BA. No. 1 in 2006? No. 2 in 2005? That used to be unheard of in Boston.

  48. RH December 6, 2006 at 1:00 AM #

    According to BA, the Red Sox are the best "draft-ers" of this decade (the past 6 years). That however can mostly be attributed to excellent scouting, and less to Theo being a super GM drafting-wise.
    By the way, here's an article that supports the Drew signing, but only if Manny stays.
    http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryI
    (I don't have ESPN Insider, but if you do, you can read the details — I'm going just by the "free" part).

  49. josh December 6, 2006 at 1:05 AM #

    Yeah, I saw that, Law basically says what we already know-Drew can't make up for Manny's offense. Flawed logic, in my opinion…as we've discussed, Drew's a 5-hitter replacing Nixon, etc. etc. And part of what I meant about Theo was that he's been reluctant to trade his best prospects for quick-fixes. Say what you want about the Beckett deal…that wasn't a "win-now" move; Beckett was 25. Same with swapping Marte for Crisp, and refusing to give Lester or Hansen to the Phils for Abreu.

  50. Chris C December 6, 2006 at 1:20 AM #

    Ok Sean, I've said it before, but your expletives and shrillness beg for it to be repeated. Which of the last 86+ years of Red Sox GMs would you point to as having done a better job? The one that traded our #1 AAA prospect Jeff Bagwell and admitted that he 'had never even seen him play'? All the others that ran teams that won 95 games three years in a row? Or to the postseason 3 years in a row? Or all the ones that won the World Series? Or is that suddenly not important, as long as they don't trade Andy Marte or whatever it is that has your panties so in a bunch? (Didn't the Braves also trade Andy Marte? For Renteria? Where does that leave their GM?) Have a drink and remember that baseball is supposed to be fun.

  51. mouse December 6, 2006 at 11:59 AM #

    //Instead of keeping Pena on the bench ANOTHER year, get a quality pen arm for him, or deal Manny already!//
    I opt for "none of the above." I'd rather keep both Manny and Wily Mo. I like J.D. Drew, but I think with his history, as well as Manny's, a guy like Pena is all the more valuable. One of our biggest problems in 2006 was a lack of depth when all the injuries cascaded. Let's not trade away that depth now that we have it back.

  52. Sean O December 6, 2006 at 12:06 PM #

    Chris-
    Your defense is that Theo's better than the unqualified buffoons that preceded him? That's not giving him any credit, is it?
    The Braves traded Marte because they have a star firmly stuck in that position for the next few years. Who did we have, the Mike Lowell that is 32 and was coming off a completely dead season? How many 3rd base prospects do we have?
    Here's my question Chris: how many past GMs of the Sox were able to outspend every team but one? How often did Red Auerbach just outspend everyone during the dynasty?
    Baseball isn't fun when a clueless GM makes nothing but stupid moves. Not only that, when they bring in wifebeaters and people who are completely unlikable. Hey Beckett, where's all the swagger you had a year ago this time?

  53. RH December 6, 2006 at 12:19 PM #

    The Marlins have inquired about Sox OF David Murphy and it looks like Boston could be close to a deal with the Fish. The Red Sox apparently asked for lefty starter/reliever Taylor Tankersley, and the Marlins balked at that price.
    Murphy for Matt Treanor and ? could be a more realistic trade.

  54. Jared K December 6, 2006 at 12:26 PM #

    While Coco's vale is low right now, it could be interesting to move him now and play Drew in Center for a year, maybe two, while Ellsbury continues to develop. You could play Pena in right and have David Murphy in the mix as a left-handed complement and defensive replacement. Murphy, I think is about 25 y/o and they either need to decide this guy is a 4th outfielder (would be very valuable as he is a great defensive player in Center and would certaily be much better in right then Pena) or move him to a team like the Marlins who have an opening. I guess you could also start with Murphy in Pawtucket and Pena/Crisp platoon until a market or need really develops.

  55. RH December 6, 2006 at 1:02 PM #

    With Lugo now on board, I think the Sox will be more open to moving Crisp, since there's no longer a lack of speed in the lineup. Drew's ability to play center helps that, but Pena in rightfield doesn't make me particularly comfortable, especially since Drew is slower than Crisp.
    Murphy won't be good for the Red Sox. He's a pull-hitter which makes Fenway a less-than-ideal home for him. In Florida however, he could thrive, and he's more than capable of covering the wide outfield at Dolphins' Stadium.
    A three-team deal is also a possibility with Murphy going to Florida, a prospect going to Anaheim, and Brendan Donnelly going to Boston.

  56. jonny215 December 12, 2006 at 9:00 AM #

    jonny128