December 4, 2007 at 4:20 PM
Framework Complete: Johan Santana a Red Sox
The Boston Red Sox have completed the framework of a deal with the Minnesota Twins that will send Johan Santana from the Twins to the Red Sox for
This information comes from KNBR via devoted Red Sox fan/MLB columnist Daniel Rathman.
Says Rathman:
Some details and kinks still need to be worked out, but there’s little reason to expect that this won’t get done by tonight or tomorrow morning.Talks with Santana’s agent about an extension could begin tomorrow. Indications are that the Sox will start with an offer of five-years, $100 million and go from there.
Part of me is excited, part of me is not. The excited part is the one who looks at the Red Sox circa 2008-2011. The not-so-excited part looks at anything past 2011, so if the Red Sox can ink Santana to five years... then I'm wholly on board.
I love Jon Lester and think he is another Andy Pettitte in the making, and John Farrell thinks so too. The Boston pitching coach recently told Sox brass that Lester could win 15-18 games consistently in his prime. (Source: Peter Gammons, ESPN Insider.)
We all know about Coco Crisp and we all greatly prefer Jacoby Ellsbury instead of Crisp. Masterson is a sinkerballer who could thrive in Minnesota and Lowrie could be an All-Star infielder in a few years for the Twins. (Could.) Kalish is a top-10 Sox prospect, but is 19 years old and can't be counted on yet.
Santana, turning 29 on March 13, finished 2007 up with a 15-13 record, 219.0 IP, 3.33 ERA and 1.07 WHIP.
The three years before that from 2004-6, he pitched 228.0, 231.2 and 233.2 IP respectively with ERAs also respective of 2.61, 2.88 and 2.67. In 2002 and 2003 he dominated as a swingman out of the bullpen, starting in 14 and 16 games respectively while also making appearances out of the bullpen. He made most of his appearaches out of the bullpen (and some starts) in 2000 and 2001. His career has 175 starts, 251 games, 3.22 ERA, 1308.2 IP and a 93-44 record.
This is a deal that the Red Sox simply had to do.
And I'm in shock. Johan Santana is, barring a complete collapse, a Red Sox.
Discussion
170 Comments on "Framework Complete: Johan Santana a Red Sox"
#1
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 4:24 PM
This is (cautiously) awesome!
"If the Red Sox get Santana," one NL executive told ESPN's Jason Stark, "they might be the best team in the history of the frigging universe."
#2
Posted by Steven Roth, December 4, 2007 4:25 PM
AMEN, I just squealed like a fourteen year old schoolgirl when I heard Jacoby wasn't involved.
Thank you for not ******* Theo!
#4
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 4:33 PM
Check out the the LoHud blog and Bronx Block. The fans they're are ridiculously bitter and a deal hasn't even been made yet. They're saying this is collusion and Selig should veto it because it's not in the best interests of baseball. Then they're going on and on about how the Yankees young players are leaps and bounds better than that of the Red Sox. Hey, it's not the Red Sox fault the Twins want a starter who's never pitched in Triple-A, a well below average centerfielder and a Single-A prospect in return for Johan Santana.
#8
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 4:38 PM
You won't find a bigger Lester supporter than me, there aren't many lefties out there with his stuff. This move makes a lot of sense for the Twins, they replaced Hunter's defense with Crisp (Delmon Young should be able to match, if not exceed, his plate production in the future), they can possibly move Lowrie or Brendan Harris to third and play the other at short and finally get rid of the black hole that is Nick Punto. Masterson if he continues to progress should at least be a no.3 (but as a sinkerballer on the Minnesota turf things could get dicey sometimes) and Kalish has the potential to be a productive major leaguer. I think the reason that the Twins took this package is that it addresses a lot of their needs, more so than they would have addressed with a package of say, Melky, Hughes, and nothing else.
#9
Posted by Evan Brunell, December 4, 2007 4:45 PM
If Yankees fans want to think that their prospects are the Holy Grail, let them.
Their careers, and the reactions of GMs around the league while placing value on those players, will show that the Yankee fans overvalue them.
Are they good prospects? Absolutely. But the Yankee fans seem to think it comes down to Hughes and Ellsbury.
It doesn't. It comes down to the total package and what the needs of the teams are. Boston was able to expand it to a 5 for 1 deal with no noticeable lack of talent because we have a deeper system and because Hank thinks like a fan and overvalues the players.
As much as Yankee fans want to think otherwise, all GMs are paid handsomely for their ability to do their jobs and they don't get there without success everywhere.
The worst GM in the history of baseball is that because he is judged with his peers. Put him in a room with fans and he is the best in the history of baseball.
#10
Posted by Bond James 007 Bond, December 4, 2007 4:46 PM
wow you get the best pitcher in baseball for NOTHING
#11
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 4:49 PM
Yup, the Yankees can talk about how their young players and prospects are better all they want. They're not the ones winning World Series and dealing for Josh Beckett and Johan Santana.
#12
Posted by Dave B., December 4, 2007 4:49 PM
Damn, it is hard to argue with this deal but 5-1. Has that ever happened in baseball? Couldn't be have sent Place instead of Kalish, that kid is gonna be a stud.
#13
Posted by jc, December 4, 2007 4:50 PM
if this is true, it looks like Santa, or should I say Santana is coming a little early this year. Awesome!
#14
Posted by Dan Order, December 4, 2007 5:03 PM
so where does this put us with Beckett's contract?
#15
Posted by Rick, December 4, 2007 5:06 PM
1xGood Lefty + 4xSurplus Good Players = 1xCy Young Awards Winner?
Excellent math, Theo. You get a gold star.
#16
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 5:06 PM
I must say...I'm probably too excited about this. Just to clarify, KNBR is citing Peter Gammons and one other source, and reporting that the "general framework" (i.e. players involved) is in place, but the deal is not yet done. The Herald recently reported that the Sox don't think the Yankees are completely out of it, so I'm somewhat confused. But it sounds like Johan will indeed be coming to Boston -- barring some sort of complication or blockbuster offer from NYY.
The Herald also reports that the Twins told the Sox they want to get this done before the end of today, which seems to confirm the KNBR report, as opposed to the previous part. Is the Herald usually this confusing?
I'm completely shocked/stunned/ecstatic/conflicted/something else and I need to take (and preferably not fail) a Chemistry midterm in 15 minutes. This is NOT going to be fun.
#17
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 5:10 PM
It's not done yet. The Angels are offering lots of talent for Santana as well. The Twins just outrighted a player from their 40-man, so they're likely about to make a deal. Many other sources have reported that they'd like to make a deal soon.
#18
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 5:16 PM
That the Twins have outrighted a player now probably suggests that they're about to make a deal. I believe they also had a couple of 40-man spaces free, so this makes the 5-to-1 trade from the Sox sound a bit more likely.
KNBR is also reporting that though the Yankees appear to be dead in the talks, the Angels are still very much alive.
I'm still not sure what the exact definition of "framework" they're using is, but I thought it meant that the deal was essentially done.
Anyway, off to see if I can remember solubility rules and other chemical junk. Why now, dammit?
#19
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 5:25 PM
Daniel, no. You can't go! Who's going to keep me updated on what KNBR is saying???
#20
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 5:29 PM
Mike, they have some sort of basketball show that's going to focus on the Warriors now anyway, so don't worry about it. :-)
Test in two minutes. Must go NOW. Back at 3:30...hopefully feeling at least semi-content.
#21
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 5:33 PM
Go crazy folks!
For those concerned about the money: Torii Hunter just got $18m for 5 years. Do you think Hunter is worth even $10-15m less than Santana?
FA contracts are spiraling out of control annually, to where the ridiculous AJ Burnett contract looks like a bargain. Carlos Silva will get $25m.
WELCOME SUPERNATURAL!
#22
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 5:33 PM
Boooooo basketball!
On the bright side, Baseball Prospectus has just said that a Red Sox deal is all but done.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6970
PHEEEEEEEEEEEW! I thought the Angels would pose a much more serious threat and I'm still a tad bit wary about them.
#24
Posted by J.J. Beantowner, December 4, 2007 5:37 PM
Yanks are out of it! The opinion is that Santana is not worrth Hughes and Kennedy...Cashman et al are probably right.
#25
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 5:38 PM
If Kennedy becomes less than a #3, methinks Yankees fans rue this day for years. Even then, if Santana has a 3.2 ERA for the next 3 years, that could be a bitter pill to swallow.
#26
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 5:41 PM
Stark reported about an hour ago that the Angels were in this seriously, I'm getting a little antsy cause the clock keeps ticking and nothing is official
#27
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 5:45 PM
I'm also getting a bit nervous, since Lowrie is out, and Carroll said "a center fielder." No way we could give up Ellsbury, Lester, Masterson and Kalish, right? That would pretty much destroy the party.
#28
Posted by J.J. Beantowner, December 4, 2007 5:46 PM
Angel are pushing heavily offering 4-5 solid players.
#29
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 5:46 PM
I wouldn't consider this done yet.
Carroll said Lester, Kalish, Masterson and a CF? Could that be Ellsbury now? Or isn't Kalish and Ellsbury redundant?
I haven't been this anxious since the A-Rod talks in 03.
#30
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 5:47 PM
I don't think Kalish is a CF, so he'd be a corner guy.
#31
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 5:47 PM
For the record, I'd be against Ellsbury, Lester, Kalish and Masterson. That's simply too much and, while this deal would be absolutely terrific, we're not desperate to give away THAT much talent, right?
Color me concerned but optimistic Theo won't throw that much talent at the Twins.
Kalish could be a stud.
#32
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 5:49 PM
How could Carroll just say a CF? What a jerk.
Hasn't he screwed up reporting deals before?
#33
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 5:51 PM
Zach, because it's the only way anyone would talk about what he said.
#34
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 5:52 PM
True.
Anyone think the Angels could swoop in and ruin the party?
#35
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 5:53 PM
I'm getting more concerned about exactly that every minute that goes by without an announcement
#36
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 5:54 PM
The Angels could definitely still ruin the party. Santana might not want to go there though, but I bet he will if they pay him.
#37
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 5:55 PM
It would be awesome if the Red Sox could keep Lowrie though. They could then flip him for bullpen help such as Brian Fuentes and have every position filled except for backup catcher, a second backup who can play the corner infield spots and a backup outfielder.
#38
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 5:56 PM
not sure I'd want Fuentes with the type of meltdowns he had last year
#39
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 5:59 PM
damn you Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim ... if they force us to put Ellsbury and Lester into one deal I'm not gonna be happy ... why do they need more pitchi ... oh wait ... that's probably not a great question to ask concerning our current rotation lol ... whatever ... Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie/Kalish ... good? DO IT!!!
#40
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:03 PM
"UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 5:02pm: All the Santana-Angels stuff is bogus, according to GM Tony Reagins."
YEAH!!!
#41
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 6:04 PM
LOL
The Angels GM himself said that he never talked to the Twins. Ahhhhhh hah hah!
#42
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 6:05 PM
lol now Edes is reporting the Angels were never in on Santana at all and they havent talked to the Twins yet .... ok is it just me or is this getting a little ridiculous? way too confusing for me ... and yet a hell of a lot of fun lol
#43
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 6:08 PM
That might've been the shortest midterm ever, THANK GOD. Meanwhile, my Chem teacher was surfing a ton of websites looking for news too (yes, he's also a Sox fan).
The Tigers, according to KNBR, are about to acquire Cabrera and Willis from the Marlins for Maybin, Andrew Miller, and four other high-caliber prospects. Now THAT's a blockbuster!
This Angels stuff sounds weird...
#44
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 6:09 PM
Sam, this is only the beginning of the ridiculous. You been following the stuff on Cabrera? First the Tigers were close to a deal for him. Next the White Sox were about to announce a deal for him. Now supposedly the Tigers are about to send EIGHT PLAYERS to the Marlins for Cabrera AND Willis!
This is the most awesome day of Winter Meetings that I can remember in some time!
#45
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 6:10 PM
Wait, now, literally 45 seconds later, KNBR reports that the White Sox will be making a Cabrera annoucement. WTF is going on?!!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!
#46
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:11 PM
Holy shit that Tigers/Marlins deal is EPIC.
Good to hear the Angels talk was nothing.
GET THIS DONE.
#48
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:15 PM
Cabrera and Willis to the Tigers for Maybin, Miller and four pitchers is complete, according to ESPN.
This is bad because the Tigers lineup is outstanding at this point and now the Angels may push hard for Santana after losing out on MC.
#49
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 6:16 PM
yeah I know ... that one I have a hard time believing ... 8 players you gotta be kidding me right?!? that's one short of being able to field an entire team fro crying out loud!
as much as Cabrera looks great count me as one who is glad we apparently aren't in a bidding war for him ... the rumours that would fly around that would give Gammons a heart attack man ... you'd have Sox reporters calling in sick from mental fatigue
the Hot Stove is awesome ... it's screwing my day tho lol
#51
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:18 PM
This is the best hot stove day *ever.* Could Santana, Cabrera and Willis all be traded in the same hour?
#52
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 6:21 PM
where are you seeing that the cabrera deal is done? I've been scouring ESPN.com and finding nothing
#53
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 6:23 PM
Wait, hold on. Now there's rumors that the Marlins are using the Tigers to gain leverage on the Angels and force Tony Reagins to bolster his offer. Adenhart, Kendrick, Mathis, and Wood could now be going to Florida for Cabrera.
According to one NL executive, "he was told by senior colleagues in the past 30 minutes that three different teams had acquired Cabrera."
WTF is going on?
This is AWESOME.
#54
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 6:25 PM
Oh, and the Dodgers are apparently closing in on Erik Bedard, with an offer of Matt Kemp, Jonathan Broxton, and Andy LaRoche.
Meanwhile, the Giants could be nearing a Matt Cain-for-Alex Rios swap, and the A's and Diamondbacks are close on a trade involving Dan Haren.
Did someone slip some something into the GMs' drinks last night??!
#55
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:27 PM
My guess is GMs are looking at the Hunter contract and breaking into a cold sweat. If all or any of these deals go down, oh lordy.
I just want my Santana without Ellsbury involved, k?
#56
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:28 PM
Hahaha this is insane and I love every minute of it. Sure hope it concludes with a happy ending.
That's quite a haul for the Orioles to get back.
Johan Santana is going to the Angels at the last second. That's my prediction, hope I'm wrong.
#57
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:29 PM
All times ET 6:20 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Tigers have won the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes. The Marlins get six players -- Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and three minor league prospects -- for the slugging third baseman.
#58
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:31 PM
I hope this means the Angels don't throw Adenhart, Kendrick and Weaver at Santana. Finish the deal with us MN.
#59
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:31 PM
Say the Sox get Santana.
1) Sox, 2) Tigers, 3) Tribe, 4) Halos, 5) Yanks
The American League is insane.
#60
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:32 PM
I think he's going to the Angels, Sean. They don't necessarily need pitching but they can easily offer the best package with the Dodgers focused on Bedard.
#62
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:36 PM
But Reagins hasn't said a word to Smith, you think that changes now?
And with what CSN is saying, it's all but done now. I want it done.
#63
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:38 PM
"If the Red Sox get Santana," said an executive of one NL team that's grateful to be in the other league, "they might be the best team in the history of the frigging universe."
#64
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:45 PM
I think Reagins picks up the phone right now and calls Smith.
#65
Posted by Sebastian Biela, December 4, 2007 6:47 PM
"I think he’s going to the Angels, Sean. They don’t necessarily need pitching but they can easily offer the best package with the Dodgers focused on Bedard."- Zach Hayes
But the Angels GM has already said that they are not pursuing Santana, no? I feel really confident that the Sox get Santana, I just hope that they don't trade Ellsbury
#66
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 6:48 PM
man I really wish the rest of the league would just hold off on their little 8 player blockbuster until after we traded for Santana ... I don't want anything messed up
Cabrera getting traded into their division might make them more desperate to trade Johan considering all hopes of them winning this season are pretty much gone ... but it also might make guys like Crisp even less attractive since they really need to build towards the future rather than saving for now
then theres the Angels who are running out of trade options ... their fans must be going crazy right now to see Miggy swiped up so quickly like that ... hopefully that doesn't motivate them to do something rash ... like ship 4 big chips to Minnesota for a certain big name pitcher
I dunno ... crazy stuff ... let's just get this done already ... even Theo has got to be getting nervous by now
#67
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 6:51 PM
He did say that, but it would change with the Angels losing out on both A-Rod and M-Cab. They have a surplus of high-ceiling prospects to deal at this point and have to be getting frustrated.
#68
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:53 PM
someone just said theo scheduled press conference for 7, but who knows, I'll let you know with details.
#69
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 6:53 PM
I'm guessing that Reagins knew he wouldn't get Cabrera when he said that. I still think the Angels would be more likely to go after Bedard than Santana, though who knows.
Also, KNBR says "don't count out the Mariners, just yet."
#71
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 6:56 PM
grr, not a press conference, just theo's typical meeting with beat reporters.
"From the Globe's Gordon Edes (6:30 p.m.): "Theo Epstein took just enough time to present Terry Francona Baseball America's Manager of the Year award, then left the premises before he could be intercepted by any inquisitive types. His session with Boston beat reporters tonight has been pushed back until at least 7 o'clock Eastern time. Will Carroll, who is so often dead-on in his medical info on Baseball Prospectus, is saying the Sox/Twins deal is all but done. My sources aren't willing to go that far yet."
#72
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 6:57 PM
KNBR:
"A source affiliated with the Twins has indicated that a Johan Santana deal is essentially done, but refused to say which team had delivered the winning offer."
I'm heading home...back in about an hour.
#75
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 7:03 PM
CSN is saying it's Lester/Masterson/Kalish, no Crisp. wtf. I think it's McAdam, but who knows.
#76
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 7:04 PM
McAdam is a good source, but I don't believe that.
#77
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 7:06 PM
Daniel, why you gotta say that? lol That same thing has been said multiple times about the Red Sox though so I'll take it with a grain of salt.
#78
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 7:07 PM
yeah no Coco or Ells? and what happened to Lowrie? hard to believe that one unless the Twins got really desperate and the Sox pulled half the offer off the table ... whatever we'll see
#79
Posted by Red Sox Acquire Santana « iYankees, December 4, 2007 7:09 PM
[...] Sox Acquire Santana According to this source, the Red Sox have reached an agreement with the Twins to send Johan Santana to Boston.  I [...]
#80
Posted by BLOCKBUSTER DAY: DEALS & INFO « iYankees, December 4, 2007 7:09 PM
[...] which has been increased to 5 players at this time (Crisp and Lester spearhead this package).  Some are reporting that a framework has already been completed on the deal, meaning that the Red Sox will have a window of opportunity to negotiate an extension [...]
#83
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 7:18 PM
You know what I just realized, looking at Santana's numbers? Seven of the twelve runs he's given up at Fenway Park over his career, were given up 2000 during the third major league appearance of his career. In that year, Santana had an overall ERA of 6.49. If you take out that 3.1 inning appearance in which he gave up seven runs, his numbers at Fenway Park are actually quite good. His ERA at Fenway wouldn't be 6.89, it would instead be 3.66.
#84
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 7:18 PM
yeah I dont get it ... maybe Theo and Bill decided to go get dinner ... I dunno ... its a little frustrating tho
#85
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 7:23 PM
The thing I always hate about "pitcher x gets killed at place y" is that pitcher x will never face that lineup again. Santana had to face the Red Sox there, which (god willing) he'll never have to do again.
Just let him appear in a hat with a B on it, then I can relax.
#86
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 7:26 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=691/?affiliate=3
Nate Silver is 100% wrong here. He thinks Maybin, Miller and 4 other prospects are the same as what we're (hopefully) giving up for Santana. That's not even close. Maybin is one of the very tippytoppy prospects in baseball, akin to our buchholz.
#87
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 7:44 PM
Call me crazy, but I think Miller will have just as good a career as Buchholz.
#88
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 7:45 PM
Reagins says he's looking at other teams, and not at all involved with the Twins for Santana. This was at 7:05 Eastern.
#90
Posted by Evan Brunell, December 4, 2007 7:51 PM
I saw that CSN report and did a doubletake. No way that's true. How is that better than JUST Hughes/Cabera?
Way too many rumors flying around.
Cabrera to Tigers is done.
Santana to Red Sox is agreed up on.
That's what most sources (and reputable at that) are saying. That's what I'm going to believe.
#91
Posted by Guest Columnist, December 4, 2007 8:00 PM
Man, it's good to be a fan of the best team in baseball : )
Even the haters make you laugh!
#92
Posted by Dan Order, December 4, 2007 8:18 PM
But at least we win them. last i checked, a-rod + jeter plus everyone only got you an extended offseason to make different midge excuses.
#93
Posted by Dan Order, December 4, 2007 8:18 PM
ok now i feel dumb, who deleted the argument/wanna delete what i just said?
#94
Posted by Rick Goose, December 4, 2007 8:20 PM
Why even play the games? Just annoint the Sox Champs now. Seriously...A great move..Have to wonder about the Twins wanting what they were offered. Someone earlier asserted that the Sox system is deeper than their Rivals...Not true...Go to minorleaguebaseball.com, and see which Team's affiliates were atop the AAA, & AA Leagues..
Truth is the Twins liked what the Sox offered, and didn't feel they could do better.
#95
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 8:20 PM
Wow, I bet this site doesn't get even half the hits in a day like Pete Abraham's site, Lohud.
Pete's had over 2000 comments in, like, three days.
Evan, we should stop blowing each other so much and get to work over here...
#96
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 8:21 PM
Sorry Dan. It was vulgur and ridiculous and didn't belong in what was good discussion.
#98
Posted by Not True, December 4, 2007 8:24 PM
Gammons posted this story for about a minute then retracted it, I can't believe you all fell for this guy trying to run with it.
#99
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 8:27 PM
Not True, both Gammons and Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus have said the same thing.
#100
Posted by Not True, December 4, 2007 8:33 PM
Will Carroll said this 3 HOURS AGO...
"Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now."
#101
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 8:35 PM
Anyone hear of any Red Sox rumors today that didn't have to do with Santana? All I can find is that they're interested in Mike Lamb.
#102
Posted by Jimmy, December 4, 2007 8:38 PM
Cheap *** sox won't sign him. This was purely a blocking move and they never had intention of signing him. A reported offer of $100 over 5 years = peanuts and shows just how fake this whole thing was.
Suckers.
#103
Posted by Not True, December 4, 2007 8:43 PM
Just like they won't sign Dice-K either, oh wait....
#104
Posted by Don B, December 4, 2007 8:43 PM
Still don't see any confirmation of this on the wire. Looks to be anohter rumor. Don't think the Twins would take that package when they were holding the Yankees up for Hughes, Cabrera and Kenedy.
#106
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 8:50 PM
Anyone see in the SOSH Santana news thread they just posted this as breaking news and credited Dan Rath? haha
Where are you dude? I need KNBR.
#107
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 4, 2007 8:52 PM
And now just took it down.
You were famous for like one second.
#108
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 8:52 PM
I have no clue what is going on ... why so long since a report? I mean you'd think we'd get something ... of course there was hardly anything on the Tigers getting Miggy until just a few minutes that actually happened ... let's hope they get this done tonight
#109
Posted by Not True, December 4, 2007 8:54 PM
There is no deal, again I can't stop laughing for you guys believing some clowns blog. HAHAHA
#110
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 8:57 PM
Not True, I don't think anyone said or thought there was a deal. It's been reported multiple times that the two teams were CLOSE to a deal. And if this is a clown's blog then why are you STILL here?
#111
Posted by Brian, December 4, 2007 8:58 PM
Twins are stupid if they settle for a package without both Ellsbury and Lester (unless it's Ellsbury and Buchholz, which won't happen).
#112
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 9:01 PM
um no ... they would be stupid to hold on to a guy they know they can't resign and end up just getting a couple of draft picks for him ... unless the LA teams decide to get into th 5-1 deal is probly the best youre going to get
#113
Posted by Not True, December 4, 2007 9:02 PM
Like I said no deal is done...
"Boston general manager Theo Epstein just held a briefing session with the team’s beat reporters, and while he wouldn’t comment on what’s being talked about, he said he expected negotiations to go “well into the night,” presumably with the Twins. He also said the teams are being flexible, that no “final offers” have been made."
http://2007springtraining.blogspot.com/2007/12/another-long-night.html
#114
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 9:02 PM
Don't bother responding to some pathetic troll. GFY, kid.
#115
Posted by Yanks Fan, December 4, 2007 9:03 PM
Wow. Boston got a STEAL. I hate to admit it, but not only did Boston bitch smack George II by offering less and getting the deal, but they are primed for a swift kick to his nuts should Hughes and Kennedy not develop perfectly.
I'm not sure who is looking like the dumbest team in baseball- The Yanks for playing hard to get and not getting or the Twins for trading the best pitcher in baseball for a good prospect, a salary anchor and 3 no-ones.
Trying to look at it objectively, not as a fan, I really do think the Yankee offer was superior to the Boston offer.
Hughes > Lester
Melky > Coco (once the 500k v. +5M and age is factored in)
Rest are details. I can't believe Boston got Santana without giving up Clay or Jacoby. I just wonder how long it will take before the Twins realize they've been robbed.
"No no, guys! They are magical beans!"
#116
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 9:05 PM
Yeah, it's kind of pointless. He's trying to argue that no deal is already made against a group of people who aren't saying a deal is made. If it was, I'm pretty sure a reporter or two might be willing to pick up the story. Santana's kind of important.
#117
Posted by Zach, December 4, 2007 9:08 PM
Nobody is saying the deal is done, just close. Very close. And it appears the Red Sox are the only ones seriously in negotiating at this point.
#118
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 9:10 PM
dude ... this thing is apparently far from done ... remember we still are going to want a chance to resign Johan as well and that in itself could be very interesting ... still if this does go down it's not because the Twins liked Coco/Lester more than Hughes/Melky ... it's because the Twins liked Coco/Lester + Kalish + Lowrie + Masterson ... its' also because Hank couldn't handle sitting thru a bidding war
#119
Posted by Yanks Fan, December 4, 2007 9:16 PM
I think the twins were taking it because it was a one horse race. Better than having nothing next year.
#120
Posted by Dan Order, December 4, 2007 9:24 PM
Also the Red Sox offer satisfies the needs of the Twins more. But, because the Twins need to get the deal done (the Red Sox offer is more valuable than the two possible draft picks), and because the Sox appear to be the only suitors at this point, the two teams are "close."
Just think what this would do for a playoff rotation.
#121
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 9:25 PM
The yankees were unwilling to make it a 3 player trade and honestly although I will agree that Hughes is a better prospect than Lester, Crisp has about the same value as Cabrera and the Red Sox adding Lowrie, Masterson and Kalish to the deal helps address some of the Twins needs that they could not have with the New York offer. Still this is not done yet, and that worries me a bit, hopefully it will be done before the end of the night or tommorow.
#122
Posted by SoxFan, December 4, 2007 9:26 PM
Oh man, this is better than getting Petey!
Look out, this should just about guarantee the division (barring injuries, and with 2 old guys Timlin and Schill you cant).
#123
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 9:28 PM
SoxFan, how much are we really relying on Timlin and Schilling though? That's our #4 or #5 starter and our 6th/7th inning guy. Beckett could go down, but i'm about as confident as can be.
"UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 8:21pm: Theo Epstein expects negotiations with the Twins to carry "well into the night." He says the Red Sox are being flexible, so it sounds like they'll hammer something out."
sigh, please end it.
#124
Posted by Tiger Fan, December 4, 2007 9:36 PM
Hey Beaners:
I wouldn't make those world series plans just yet. We have much better hitting and much better pitching.
Next we are going to fleece the Twins for Joe Nathan in exchange for some trainers tape and Kenny Rogers' old glove.
You guys have some racket going on with Peter Gammons talking up your prospects on ESPN so that other teams want them. The only prospect of value that ever amount to anything in the 1990's to date is Hanley Ramirez. You fleeced Arizona, Montreal and now the Twins.
#125
Posted by Dan Order, December 4, 2007 9:42 PM
Until I saw your name, Tigers fan, I didn't know which team you were talking about. I'm sure Papelbon, Pedroia, Ellsbury and Buchholz will prove you wrong about those prospects, good try though. Have fun waiting for D-train to adjust to the superior league when he couldn't even hold it down in Florida last year.
#127
Posted by Bob, December 4, 2007 9:43 PM
Hitting I'll give you, but pitching, really dude? with Santana? really?
#128
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 9:45 PM
Good luck with that Tiger fan. Have fun with Dontrelle in the American League, lol. I'm not even sure you're better than the Indians, so you have a bit to prove before you can trash talk the World Champs.
#129
Posted by Evan Brunell, December 4, 2007 9:50 PM
Yeah, Pedroia and Papelbon are pretty bad, huh?
What's funny is that apparently it's Gammons' fault that we fleeced Pedro.
Ever consider it's the Expos fault for taking that deal? EVERYONE loved Rose and Pavano.
How'd that David Justice deal work out? Who'd the Yankees send? A pretty heralded guy who was supposed to be pretty darn good, if I recall...
Except Ricky Ledee turned out ot be nothing.
The Red Sox aren't the exception, Tigers Fan. We're the norm.
#130
Posted by hynes, December 4, 2007 10:03 PM
Why would the Twins trade Joe Nathan to a team within the same division? That's borderline insanity.
#131
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 10:04 PM
The brass are at dinner and will reconvene talks with the Twins at midnight.
#132
Posted by Sean O, December 4, 2007 10:04 PM
I believe Tiger Fan said that in between huffing gasoline, so I wouldn't take it too seriously.
#133
Posted by Shane, December 4, 2007 10:15 PM
Man, I leave work early today, and then when I get home to see what's new it looks like the Sox will get Johan and there are already 130+ comments about it. I feel very much out of the loop :).
#134
Posted by Chris Joseph, December 4, 2007 10:24 PM
Pretty ballsy for a Tiger fan to jump in here and talk trash to The World Champs. Good for him and his bravery. And yea, Papelbon, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Delcarmen and Buchholz all stink! What were we thinking when we drafted them bums??? Crappy farm system!!!
Get this thing done, now.
#135
Posted by Bohica, December 4, 2007 10:33 PM
I think what the Tiger fan was alluding to is the fact that all the prospects the Red Sox trade are a result of Gammons hyping them up on his show. They are obviously drafting better under Theo Epstein since 2003. However, a reasonable deal for Santana would include Ellsbury ( considering Crisp makes about $5 million per year and stinks) and Bucholz. Jon Lester is figment of Gammons imagination. Gammons must be a cancer survivor and feels a kinship.
By the way- The Justice deal netted the Indians Jake Westbrook, who by the way beat the Red Sox in the ALCS.
Good luck dealing with Beckett when Santana is making $25 million to his $6 million.
#136
Posted by Yanks Fan, December 4, 2007 10:53 PM
I'm a huge Yankees fan, but I spent a lot of time in Michigan. I've gone to more Tiger's games than Yankee games. I'm obviously not a Boston fan. If there is anyone I'd like to see win the series, it's the Tigers.
With that said, the Tigers dont have a chance against Boston in the off season. You simply wont beat Santana or Beckett, not with 4/5 pitchers with ERAs in the high 4s. Verlander is the only hope and he's going to get smoked by October Ace Beckett.
Your offense may be superior, but it's going to get shut down by these guys. Tigers won 4/7 against Boston, but they were against the stumbling Wakefield, Taravaraz and some dude I've never heard of. I think Dicek pitched one of the games that boston lost. Dont expect to have Wake or Taravaraz starting any games in october.
#137
Posted by Richard Stabone, December 4, 2007 10:55 PM
Lester is a figment of Gammons' imagination? What does that even mean?
As for Beckett, last year was his career year. If he continues to perform at that level, his big pay day will certainly follow. But for the time being, he's got one CY-caliber season under his belt to Johan's three. Josh will make ~$10M each of the next few years; perhaps a bit of a bargain price given his recent success but at the same time he doesn't deserve to be drawing anything close to Santana money. Not yet, and likely not ever. Everyone knows how good Johan is, but based on some of the comments I've seen I'd say he's underrated. Johan moving out east, to a mega baseball market, will allow more fans to realize just how brilliant this guy really is.
#138
Posted by Evan Brunell, December 4, 2007 10:56 PM
"Good luck dealing with Beckett when Santana is making $25 million to his $6 million."
You say that like this is the NFL. Beckett can't hold out, and we have his rights for 3 years.
Methinks we'll deal just fine.
#139
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 11:10 PM
Sorry for going AWOL guys, home internet not working. Now I'm sitting in an internet cafe!
According to KNBR, the talks will resume at 12am Nashville time. Theo and Bill Smith went out for dinner. KNBR continues to maintain that the framework is in place, with a few kinks that still need to be worked out (not sure what this might mean). They said that Theo believes negotiations could carry on for a few hours after midnight, but KNBR's sources are all confident that this is going to get done -- barring an unforeseen mega-offer from another team.
Also per KNBR, the Sox may be close to inking Mike Lamb to a two-year deal.
#140
Posted by Evan Brunell, December 4, 2007 11:16 PM
Good. I like Mike Lamb. I want him. That would be good in my opinion.
#141
Posted by Zach, December 4, 2007 11:18 PM
Mike Lamb would be great as a bench player. An unbelievable upgrade from Hinske.
Dan, keep us updated on KNBR. And Happy Hanukkah, my friend.
I'm waking up at 2 to check on news. Hope it's done then.
#143
Posted by Sam, December 4, 2007 11:26 PM
good to have you back Rathman ... looks like tonight could be the night eh? let's hope this gets done ... also I love the idea of adding Lamb ... I think he'd be a great addition on the bench ... now all we need is another bullpen arm (I dunno how we work that out but we will see) and one more backup outfielder ... my bet is on Kielty if he doesn't end up somewere else before we get around to him
#144
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 4, 2007 11:34 PM
I like Lamb as well. He'd be a VERY good hitter for a backup.
#145
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 11:41 PM
Happy Hanukkah, Zach and Evan. Santana would be a nice gift...
#146
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 4, 2007 11:51 PM
I hope the internet at my house is working again, b/c this internet cafe is closing in eight minutes. Nothing happening now anyway.
#147
Posted by dave, December 4, 2007 11:54 PM
note to self: get a life
my basic cable gives me both NESN and Yes so I can see every weekend and night game and spring training and playoffs --- but that is not enough i have to be looking at this at midnight in Dec
#148
Posted by DDD, December 4, 2007 11:57 PM
Why don't they put this on PPV!!!! I'd have paid big $$$ to watch Theo and Bill Smith eat dinner tonight! :-)
#149
Posted by hynes, December 4, 2007 11:58 PM
Look at this quote for George Jr. over at Yankee HQ:
"A deadline is a deadline. It was pretty much done as of this morning," Steinbrenner said. "He's a fine pitcher, but there's a lot of things that go into this. This isn't fantasy baseball."
Man, that was funny. Isn't fantasy baseball?! So giving the highest paid baseball player a raise is ... smart?!
Haha... Hilarious. I look forward to the new look Yankees... esp. with Hank behind the wheel.
#150
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 5, 2007 12:00 AM
I LOVE Hank Steinbrenner. He's the best Yankee since Kei Igawa.
#151
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 5, 2007 12:00 AM
lol, Hynes.
And yes, I agree, this dinner should totally be on PPV. Depends what they're eating though...
#152
Posted by No longer a MLB fan, December 5, 2007 12:01 AM
Sox fans have become what they and everyone else has hated for years... they have become just like Yankee fans. Spoiled little babies. What fun is it to root for an all star team? I equate it to putting a high school team in a junior high league, at some point it just becomes boring. I hope that all your moms catch you masterbatng to Johans picture after the trade goes through.
#153
Posted by Zach, December 5, 2007 12:02 AM
And Carl Pavano. And Jaret Wright.
Sorry, Ev. Happy Hanukkah.
Tried falling asleep but cant. I might have a mental disorder. Seriously. I'm so ready for this to go down tonight.
#154
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 5, 2007 12:07 AM
Just stay up, Zach. It's only 11:05 in Wisconsin, isn't it. If they resume talks at midnite, it might be done by 1. I stay up until 3 on school nights regularly, you can do it once.
Of course, if the headline at 3am on ESPN reads "Yankees acquire Santana with surprise blockbuster offer," and Santana is not referring to Ervin, I might spill boiling hot coffee over my head.
#155
Posted by hynes, December 5, 2007 12:08 AM
To you nameless person leaving yet another boring "Sox fans are Yankee fans too" comments, tripe little comments do no one any good.
Are the Red Sox the Yankees? The short answer? No, because the Yankees suck. (;
#156
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 5, 2007 12:10 AM
Or, if you listen to LaVelle E. Neal of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, chances are that no deal will be completed during the late-night session today.
Argh, this is getting frustrating.
#157
Posted by Zach, December 5, 2007 12:13 AM
Yeah but I was up till 2 last night listening to Patriots postgame and need some shut eye. Coffee sounds like a good idea. So does valium.
#158
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 5, 2007 12:18 AM
How are the Red Sox the Yankees? We win World Series.
#159
Posted by Michael Edelman, December 5, 2007 12:18 AM
And No Longer A Fan, the only one I see here whining like a baby is you.
#160
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 5, 2007 12:20 AM
Nah, Valium won't do it. Either coffee or go drink like ten cans of some sort of caffeinated beverage.
Lavelle E. Neal recommends going to bed. Eff that.
#161
Posted by Sam, December 5, 2007 12:20 AM
MLBTR put up a update on their Dan Haren thread...
"Hank Steinbrenner weighed in on the Haren-Yankees talks, calling Billy Beane's request "ridiculous." The Yankees are out on Haren."
lol ... too funny
btw the thread is headlined with "Dan Haren Will Be Pricey" ... lol really? never would've thought
#162
Posted by cj2308@yahoo.com, December 5, 2007 12:22 AM
How about the Twins keeping Santana and seeing if the they actually have a decent team next year.
What happens if the Twins trade Santana... then next year a week after the all star game the Twins are only 3 or 4 game out of 1st place and Twins fans starts clamoring for them to pick up a pitcher? Well, they had a pitcher, the best in the game and they traded him.
Here is why the Twins will not keep Santana. Because they are afraid. They are afraid that with Santana they will be in the playoff hunt. Which would make trading him before the deadline hard to justify with Twins fans.
How is that good for baseball? That a competitive team is pretty much disqualified because of the economics of the game?
With Santana and Liriano as the 1-2 punch next year. The Twins have a shot... going into the playoffs with Santana and Liriano each pitching twice in a series they have a shot to win. Without Santana the Twins are just another sacrificial lamb waiting to be slaughtered by the big market teams.
#163
Posted by Steven Roth, December 5, 2007 12:24 AM
Great, I can't fall asleep either. I'm afraid of having these "Jacoby Ellsbury becomes the most beloved Twins outfielder since the late Kirby Puckett" nightmares.
I think I'll follow Zach's footsteps and roll out of bed every couple hours to check the updates.
Keep Jacoby, rein in Santana!
#164
Posted by Sam, December 5, 2007 12:28 AM
I guess there is one thing good about being in Alaska ... it's only 8:30 out here ... if anything happens tonight I should be up to catch it unless they go all night or something ... in which case things could get very interesting lol
#165
Posted by Zach Hayes, December 5, 2007 12:31 AM
SINCE WHEN AM I GOING TO LET LA VELLE E NEAL III RUN MY LIFE, HUH??!?! NEVER... THATS WHEN!
I'm stickin it out.
#166
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 5, 2007 12:35 AM
Nice, Zach. I'll be up here with you if anything breaks. Good to know I'm not the only moron sticking it to LaVelle.
#167
Posted by Daniel Rathman, December 5, 2007 12:39 AM
KNBR:
"The Red Sox may be all alone now in the race for Johan Santana. The Twins will likely either trade him to Boston, or not at all. Expect a significant update of some sort at or before 1am (Pacific) tonight."
#168
Posted by Yank_E_Clipper, December 5, 2007 12:41 AM
As a Yankee fan I can only hope that we're building a team for the future and reducing payroll at the same time, but with hammerin Hank in charge I think we're F'd for a decade or so. The Sox are a great team, and with Johan even better. Do I wish he were in pinstripes? Of course I do, I'm sick at the thought of the Sox rotation....SICK! But at the same time I'm happy to see some of the homegowns get a chance.
The interlocking NY on the hat may stand for "Next Year" but to me that just means we're in the hunt every year. I love the rivalry, and look forward to watching even better games between the Yanks & Sox in the future (depending on the Yankee rotation). With the Sox becoming the powerhouse that they are there is now balance in the universe........ How many more days until pitchers and catchers?
#169
Posted by Jimmy, December 5, 2007 7:36 AM
Buster Olyney just reported on espn radio that the Santana to Sox deal is dead. Minnesota is taking their pitcher with them and going home.
#170
Posted by TheScout, December 5, 2007 7:21 PM
The trade isn't done until both teams announce it. Wish I knew who Daniel Rathman is talking to down there in Nashville. I hope Mr. Rathman is at least ejoying the weather.
Evan you may have your complete collapse after all.
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