Should be interesting to watch this play out.
Can’t say I’m surprised: in this day in age, can you be?
The Red Sox have finally been touched directly by the present-day steroids scandal. (Sorry, Paxton Crawford: you weren’t significant enough to cause a stir.)
Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz are reportedly one of the 103-4 names on the seized government list that documents who tested positive for steroids in 2003. That list was responsible for kicking off mandatory steroids testing in 2004.
Manny Ramirez is no stranger to the steroids saga, having been suspended for 50 games earlier this year. He alluded to testing positive in 2003 during a press conference about this suspension, saying that “I’ve taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five seasons.”
You’ll notice that five seasons ago was 2004, not 2003.
As for David Ortiz, he has mentioned in the past that when he was young, he used to take protein shakes in the Dominican Republic and never quite knew what was in them, so it was possible he would test positive.
Was Ortiz setting this story up for the future leak? Is it legitimate or is he just trying to cover himself? The latter is what cynical people would say.
But what if true? What if those protein shakes really are the reason why he tested positive?
It doesn’t excuse his inability to check what he was digesting in his body, but do we really put him on the same pedestal as Barry Bonds? Or does he belong on the same pedestal as Andy Pettitte?
How about 2004 and on? If Ortiz did indeed test positive in 2003, he spent that whole season establishing himself as a valued member of the Red Sox, then tested clean from then on. Is that a byproduct of not ingesting those protein shakes once he found out he had tested positive?
Or is he just a hypocrite?
In my experiences watching baseball, Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez were of shady character enough that it was easy enough to see and believe they had taken steroids illegally and knowingly.
I don’t have that sense about Ortiz. It’s possible he’s crafted an outstanding, fake public image and he’s not the person we all thought he was, but I’m not cynical enough for that.
I think right now, David Ortiz deserves my not rushing to judgment. Not based on all these home runs he’s hit for the Sox, but for what he says and what he stands for.
Ortiz’s career track — ineffective and hurt — seems like a recipe for steroid use, and it probably was.
But I have a hard time believing that Ortiz should be cast in the same pool as Bonds.
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At least this (and any suspension that comes of it) will clear some room in the lineup for Adrian Gonzalez.
No suspension is possible, since it was 2003 and illegally leaked.
Here comes the shitstorm.
This really doesn’t come as a surprise to me. I am not nieve enough to think they didn’t do it. In fact, I believe they did.
However, I see it all as hearsay right now. It surprises me that the Times did this, but they can get away with that nowadays I suppose.
STEROIDS!!! STEROIDS!!! how long has it been since u won an untainted championship? 91 years?
*
Clever! That “u” really adds the touch of class.
I’m so tired of this. Too many anonymous sources and evasions of answers by players.
I could ask the same of Yankee fans. 1998 and on championships are dirty. Attempted gasps at trying to win it again from 2001-now — yes — now — are dirty.
My guess is you don’t apply the same logic to the Yankees, though.
Guys: I threw up a quick take in the article, refresh and check it out.
welcome to baseball. i dont know why people are so stunned? its far more rare to find someone NOT on steroids now
Not to sound like I’m defending steroids use but what kind of shitty anonymous drug test was this? From what I know the test was to anonymously survey the use of steroids in baseball. Why were names used at all?
Because MLB and everyone connected with it are both greedy and stupid? And this is probably going to be tremendous leverage for the next CBA.
I said this when it came out about Slappy, and I’ll say it again. I want ALL the names on that list. This nonsense about the Papers getting ahold of the information and releasing it when they need to sell more papers is ridiculous. I’m not surprised about Papi. I’ve joked among friends that he must be “back on the program” when he came out of his slump. But that’s the sort of attitude one must have these days. Its our cheaters against yours! I really wanted to believe that there weren’t any cheating Sox, but I knew deep down that there was. Either way this story neither shames me as an Sox fan or even as an Ortiz fan. Its the culture of the game, and I’ll weather that storm just like I weathered Aaron Boone, 2006, and even the current losing streak.
As a Yankee fan, I’ll admit 2000 looks pretty tainted. However, dont say ‘98 and ‘99 are tainted, cuz that’s just not true
Come on dude. From about 1995 on, it is ALL tainted.
Just give me Adrian Gonzalez. This franchise needs a new face.
I’m having trouble thinking of what I wouldn’t do for 8 figures, and of some of the things I’m sure I would do, steroids is like community service by comparison.
Idiot…those in glass houses ought not throw stones amirite A-Rod/Pettitte/Giambi?
You know with 100% certainty that ‘98 and ‘99 weren’t tainted? Roger Clemens was pitching in ‘99, right?
Everything is tainted by something depending how you look at it. It’s called cultural relativity. Is every accomplishment and record set before integration tainted? Maybe. Is every pitching stat from the deadball era tainted? Maybe.
Baseball reflects the world we live in. It is imperfect, but on a warm summer night it’s hard to tell.
Amen, Ted.
The fact is YOU DON’T KNOW. You only cling to this hope that your team has won a championship recently without any members of the team using PED’s. Jon Wettland???? really? Don’t be naive pal. Until we know the names on that list, your championships you so adore, are in question as long as they fall into the years of the “steriod era”. Hell I suspect Pujols! Despite what he’s saying about not being on anything. But its all hearsay until we get the whole list.
Is anyone seriously surprised by this? I wish they would just stop with a name or two at a time and release the entire list. from six years ago. Baseball and steroids is ridiculous.
Well said, Ted.
We need to acknowledge the fact we have passed for a steroid era. This is not a Red Sox issue. This is a Baseball issue. Or, more precicely, a sports issue.
Every player should pee in a cup before every game. It’s the only way to be sure. Test every sample, and if money’s the problem, take it out of A-Roid and Manny’s paychecks.
works for me
Here is the real joke. Gammons and Senator Mitchell are shills. They sold out! ZERO credibility. It was however a good “short run” strategy for Selig to encourage them to do so. Mitchell got over a million bucks to produce a report that a grad student with a PC could have produced in about two hours. Gammons did it for an ALBUM deal. If any one thought that Gammons was above the conflict of interest thing, watch him talk about playing the skin flute with his favorite Sox. Yankee and Sox championships are tainted going back to 98 at least. 1996 was probably legit. Who cares the other 22 by that Yanks are legit. Suck it Sox!
I say let em’ do it. The world is only going to get crazier as technology becomes more advanced. Genetically engineered athletes will make us think back fondly on steroids. We’ll say, “At least they were humans back then.” That’s why they froze Ted Williams’ head, right. In our lifetime a regenerated Ted Williams plus 80lbs of muscle, possibly with bionic arms will probably reclaim his spot in left. Steroids… Just you wait.
Gotta love when the scum creeps out of the woodwork. Stay classy NY!
On a more serious, adult note, I can’t say I’m too surprised…just more disappointed than anything. I would be way to naive to think that this was not a possibility. MLB really blew this all big time though. The Players Union should have sued the hell out of their leadership for not destroying these test results. I really hope that all of the lawyers leaking these to the press get caught, arrested and disbarred. It creeps me out that private, legally sealed information can get leaked so easily. If MLB really wanted to staunch the bleeding at this point they would just release the entire list. Might as well take the wind out of the scumbag “anonymous” lawyer-tipsters that keep releasing this stuff.
Couldn’t agree more
i have to say i was really enjoying this site until trolls started showing up. i have no desire nor intent to go to a Yankees fan site and start talking there. now i know a fair number of Yanks fans at the gym and we can all get along and be civil, actually talk about real baseball – not bull s*it. and no one is having a pissing contest about how many rings, etc…
i like maturity and prefer to not drop down to any level or, indeed, go to that “dark side”. 103-104 names would be fair now, and i felt that way when A-Rod was singled out. i can still not love a player or team but respect the bs that the media and the owners use to their advantage…
long live Jim Ed Rice!!!
peace
out
Absolutely spot on Donna. The trolls do show up here every once in a while. Usually its only when the Yankees are in first place though and something big happens. Luckily it means that it hasn’t happened often in the last few years!
Sorry to infiltrate your site. This was pent up from the Aroid drubbing we took on our sites by M@$$holes…and the last part in my previous post was admittedly gratuitous. As Yankee fan we have been beaten up for our dirty players. As it turns out, all of the contenders had players like that during that time. No big deal. Mitchell could not find any Sox players because he simply never looked. Why would he damage his own investment? As a part owner of the Sox it was/is a clear conflict of interest and it should have eliminated him from being selected. Selig chose him because Mitchell’s interests were aligned with the league’s. With Gammons the situation is similar. He owns part of the Sox which prevents him from providing any inside information on the Sox. I get that. However, there are times (every week) where he is making comments on the Yankees and it is either pure innuendo with nothing to back it up or he sounds like he is getting his talking points directly from the Sox PR department. I cherish the rivalry and respect the Sox organization and players. Go back and listen to Gammons and Mitchell yourself. See if you agree.
The fact of the matter is you should check what sites you are “infiltrating” before you go spewing off on other sites because it makes you come across as a troll. I seriously doubt that the posters here were trolling around Yankee sites post A-Rod, Giambi, Clemens, etc… Firebrand is known for good solid Red Sox commentary and discussion. There are even one or two Yankee fans that come for a reasonable back-and-forth. It does piss us off when people show up here and assume we are all 15 year-olds posting “Yankees sux!” on ESPN message boards.
As for the more substantive things you said. I would agree that the Mitchell report was lacking. However, this was partly because he was constrained to the testimony he got and the information that he could legally attain. The 104 names he could not get since that information was (and still IS) technically off limits. Only scum-bag lawyers getting their rocks off (going after A-Rod and Papi) seem to be able to release that info. I don’t think Mitchell was biased more than the information in the public and the people that could talk to him had more information on Yankees that were already exposed (Pettite, Giambi, etc…) than there was on Sox players.
As for Gammons, you are very factually INCORRECT. Gammons does not and has never owned any part of the Red Sox. At one point he worked for the Globe, but that was 25 years before they owned part of the Sox. Does Gammons have biases? Of course he does, but generally they are more towards the AL East in general (including NY I might add). I mean he gave A-Rod his first, very sympathetic interview, after his name came out.
Next time do consider where you are posting and what you are posting before you spout off. You come across badly when you just go trolling for the first “M@$$hole” site you can find. You picked the wrong site.
Tom… spot on to you! and Jean, your apology is cool.
i just would hate to see this site get screwed up with juvenile trite, whether from a M@$$hole or anyone else with less than half a brain firing
i try not to think TOO hard about all the conflicts of interest in baseball / the media / the owners / the players …
i like to pretend it is still what happens between the lines for those 9 or so innings, that anything is possible and that for the love of the game, simply, is what helps brings fans together.
I honestly am glad to have found the high minded heart of Red Sox Nation. Furthermore, I will refrain from all sorts of weenie comments…and I will leave Mr. Gammons alone. I will concede (begrudgingly) that one to you Tom.
Not Mitchell though…Any “limits” put on Mitchell were done so by himself in the way he structured his investigation. Basically your point is that he picked up a thread and followed it to its conclusion (Radomski and McNamee). Since the thread happened to pick up 22 Yankees (past or present) and did not weave its way through Boston he is not at fault. That was not the what the Independent Investigator was supposed to do. Was it? Are we supposed to believe that two trainers can account for all the problems? This was pure window dressing. The Mitchell report is basically a grad school paper on the steroid subject followed by a list of McNamee/Radomski associates. He only was able to corroborate half the list, but the names went in any way. As a Director of the Red Sox (Board Member) he has a fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the Sox are a successful profitable team. Case in point is that Mo Vaughn was on the list…However, the report points out that Vaughn was only alleged to have taken steroids while he was with the California Angels, but not while he was with Boston. Give me a break!
In my opinion Mitchell is a great Director and a horrible “independent investigator”. He can’t be good at both as these roles are diametrically opposed.
Thank you for letting me visit and join the debate.
Am I wrong or is the story of the decade— who has this list and how are they milking this story for 10 years?
Hey NYTimes, break THAT story
Hey Jean,
Good that you’re contributing to the discussion. I won’t really defend Bud Selig and the Mitchell Report. Whether you are right about the bias of it or not (which is certainly debatable), the Mitchell Report is flawed for all sorts of other reasons. The two main ones for me are the limited scope of it since MLB people really were hesitant to talk (and implicate themselves to Congress in the process) and because even the perception of bias makes the results laughably difficult to accept. While I doubt Mitchell was intending to bias the report in any direction, Bud Selig should have picked someone that did not have a current relationship with any team. In typical Selig fashion though he managed to botch this as well.
Ultimately, I think this all can be traced back to the dismissal of Faye Vincent as the Commish. Having an owner (Selig) serve in that role was bound to be trouble as the owners are obviously out to maximize the profitability of the franchises they own. The owners knew something was up, but chose to ignore it because baseball was becoming relevant and ticket sales were going up after decades of decline. Selig’s job was essentially to maintain the status quo because the owners wanted maintain the revenue stream above all else. Initially, Selig cited the the Player union contract as the reason he could not address the issue. He also hid behind flimsy pseudo-scientific arguments that steroids had no effect. Today, we are witnessing crimes right before our eyes as names are released. I believe this slow trickle of names is done so deliberately, otherwise the entire list would have been leaked. Some one is going through the trouble of culling certain names from the list. If the names were released all at once (which is a violation) the focus would be back on the Commish to address it more fully or accept some blame. I believe they are trying wear out the public’s appetite by releasing names in a by team fashion. This leads each respective teams fans to defend their own. In doing so the fans almost become complicit. It is a mess, to be sure. Baseball made a ton more money during this period and the owners and players have enjoyed the spoils. The only loser is the public. The Senate is making a spectacle of this to try to show the public it is not ok to cheat because eventually you will be caught. Nowitzky is made out to be some modern day super-hero in the NY Times two days before the release of Papi and Manny? This is supposed to serve as some sort of balm? What is lost is that steroids are in fact illegal and crimes are being perpetrated. We are getting bamboozled. Thanks for reading. Looking forward to our first win against you guys. Go Yanks!
Ultimately, I think this all can be traced back to the dismissal of Faye Vincent as the Commish. Having an owner (Selig) serve in that role was bound to be trouble as the owners are obviously out to maximize the profitability of the franchises they own. The owners knew something was up, but chose to ignore it because baseball was becoming relevant and ticket sales were going up after decades of decline. Selig’s job was essentially to maintain the status quo because the owners wanted maintain the revenue stream above all else. Initially, Selig cited the the Player union contract as the reason he could not address the issue. He also hid behind flimsy pseudo-scientific arguments that steroids had no effect. Today, we are witnessing crimes right before our eyes as names are released. I believe this slow trickle of names is done so deliberately, otherwise the entire list would have been leaked. Some one is going through the trouble of culling certain names from the list. If the names were released all at once (which is a violation) the focus would be back on the Commish to address it more fully or accept some blame. I believe they are trying wear out the public’s appetite by releasing names in a by team fashion. This leads each respective teams fans to defend their own. In doing so the fans almost become complicit. It is a mess, to be sure. Baseball made a ton more money during this period and the owners and players have enjoyed the spoils. The only loser is the public. The Senate is making a spectacle of this to try to show the public it is not ok to cheat because eventually you will be caught. Nowitzky is made out to be some modern day super-hero in the NY Times two days before the release of Papi and Manny? This is supposed to serve as some sort of balm? What is lost is that steroids are in fact illegal and crimes are being perpetrated. We are getting bamboozled. Thanks for reading. Looking forward to our first win against you guys. Go Yanks!
Ultimately, I think this all can be traced back to the dismissal of Faye Vincent as the Commish. Having an owner (Selig) serve in that role was bound to be trouble as the owners are obviously out to maximize the profitability of the franchises they own. The owners knew something was up, but chose to ignore it because baseball was becoming relevant and ticket sales were going up after decades of decline. Selig’s job was essentially to maintain the status quo because the owners wanted maintain the revenue stream above all else. Initially, Selig cited the the Player union contract as the reason he could not address the issue. He also hid behind flimsy pseudo-scientific arguments that steroids had no effect. Today, we are witnessing crimes right before our eyes as names are released. I believe this slow trickle of names is done so deliberately, otherwise the entire list would have been leaked. Some one is going through the trouble of culling certain names from the list. If the names were released all at once (which is a violation) the focus would be back on the Commish to address it more fully or accept some blame. I believe they are trying wear out the public’s appetite by releasing names in a by team fashion. This leads each respective teams fans to defend their own. In doing so the fans almost become complicit. It is a mess, to be sure. Baseball made a ton more money during this period and the owners and players have enjoyed the spoils. The only loser is the public. The Senate is making a spectacle of this to try to show the public it is not ok to cheat because eventually you will be caught. Nowitzky is made out to be some modern day super-hero in the NY Times two days before the release of Papi and Manny? This is supposed to serve as some sort of balm? What is lost is that steroids are in fact illegal and crimes are being perpetrated. We are getting bamboozled. Thanks for reading. Looking forward to our first win against you guys. Go Yanks!
This one is really tough. I think it’s been there all along, in the back of my mind. Ortiz was always just the littlest bit too sympathetic to Manny. Contrast that w/Tori Hunter’s statement about Ortiz. I’d waged donuts to dollars that Hunter is clean. His statements profess that, though I’m prepared at any second to be bowled over by just about anything.
Yesterday was a sort of D-Day for the Sox. We’ve been riding this euphoria thing for a long time. It’s been a great run. It’s been other-worldly. I think all of us enjoyed the glory of Sox Nation (’member the street sign proclaiming that ‘Today the Nation, Tomorrow the World”).
Yeah, it’s been great. I love Red Sox Nation. I love you, Boston.
I remember being in Maine a few years ago and asking the waitress periodically what the score was. She’d say, “We’re up by ….” or whatever. There was an incredible bonding going on. We were somehow bonding in a way that is very difficult and wow! thanks the Sox for that!
We were New England. We were on the same side. We were Sox fans. I have all my cousins, uncles, aunts, etc. (all that remains of my mom’s family in Boston. We still go to Kelley’s on Revere Beach for fish whenever when we get the chance. For them, this is just a blip in the radar. They’ve been at this for generations, at least. It’s them I keep thinking about. My cousin’s son, Josh, who is so sweet and good, and could in one instant wind up exactly like David Ortiz; but for now, he is just a 12 yr. old Boston kid in love w/baseball. After all, it’s all about the sport.
It seems that every guy that hit 30 or more home runs from 1992 to 2007 was on roids.I’m glad to see the Red Sox get nailed for being cheaters too. They had a holier than thou attitude and it was obvious that they were all nuts on the stuff too. How else can you explain Manny’s peeing in the outfield? Or the hairdo that makes Sideshow Bob jealous.
Now that Papi’s off the roids he’s just a fat confused .220 hitter. These guys don’t deserve to lick the cleats of real baseball superstars like Aaron, Mays, or McCovey!